The Great Debate: Helmets: Aero Vs Moto "neck injuries"?
Neck injuries?
All I can say about this is that the argument that "you will get neck injuries" from wearing a motorcycle helmet is a negative answer to a more important safety issue, protecting your head. We should positively endorse the wearing of all helmets, not let small arguments put skaters off. Why do we have to make people feel bad over something that could save their lives and their faces? The main thing is a motorbike helmet is a full face helmet. A friggin solid one too,... designed for maximum aerodynamics and protection for ON ROAD crashes, up to and over 100+kph!! Doesn't that sound like the same sort of crash environment we are in when we speedboard? Much closer to what we do than doing dirt jumps or hang gliding/flying. :/
Sure you can spend 500 on a helmet and have a really lightweight lid, and also be so-so fashionable at the local sesh, but I feel there are trade offs with all three possibilities and all have their pros and cons-
Motorbike helmets,
Mountain Bike helmets and
Glider helmets
Motorbike helmets are heavier, but tougher. They have a visor which is really handy. They also could save your life. Second hand these will cost peanuts, but dont get one that is so old that the foam inside is hard.
Some of the sort of crashes you might expect in a motorbike accident involve hitting solid objects, being thrown, slamming onto tarmac, and getting hit from behind (which must be a serious whiplash issue).
In studies under these conditions (on-road motorbike accident) there were neck injuries in some cases, but the protection to the head statistics far out-weighed the neck issue. If the same accident occurred without a helmet (the one that caused neck injuries), it is highly probable that the same neck injuries would occur, however it is doubtful that the accident victim would have survived. If you get neck injuries from a fall, it may not just be the weight of the helmet that caused it, it might be the way you fell.
Maybe one day you will pull a muscle in your neck when you fall off your skateboard, but this depends on the kind of fall. In my opinion, it is better to have more protection for your head.
If some skater buys a helmet like this, he should not be discouraged. This is good protection.
If you are worried about your neck get a foam racing neck brace. Probably not such a stupid idea for MTB and aero users either.
Just be aware that you cant hear ambient skating noise as well in these.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 1 out of 3
MTB helmets seem to be a happier medium. Light and medium priced. Still mainly designed for MTB crashes which are mostly off road, (but still gnarly) and at speeds mostly under 60kph. Yeah MOTO X and MTB helmets have a different shape than ON ROAD motorbike helmets. Wouldn't you think that they have done studies on the kind of accidents both sports have, and tailor-made the helmet to provide protection under their respective conditions? Not really very aero,... but a MTB isn't a very aero thing either.
Downside to the MTB helmet is the lack of a visor. I have seen home made visors that work, and I have seen some that seem to restrict vision. Think to yourself, if you are moving at 60kph and a snake or lizard or even a stick is on the ground, do you want to see it before you hit it? Its hard enough to see through the shadows of the trees without taking away some more visual clarity. What about pot holes? Do you want to see them?? A DIY visor could be a bigger player in you having a crash, so make sure you take it into consideration.
Why not go for goggles? You might see better.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 2 out of 3
Glider helmets. Very expensive.
So what kind of impact would you expect one of these to protect you from? I imagine it can't really protect you from a full plummet from the sky. It must have some protection from tree branches, cliff faces and maybe being skewered by the aluminum tubes that make up your ultralight. I don't believe the shells of the Glider helmet are as solid as a motorbike helmet, or possibly even a MTB helmet. I may not be right, but we are starting to see more high speed crashes from people wearing these, and I am scared that the statistics arent looking good. If there is official data on the safety of these in the sort of accidents you guys are having in these Id like to see it. But I do know the riders that generally wear these are more seasoned, and may not fall off as much.
Would I feel protected if I wore an Icaro on a motorbike or scooter? Somehow I don't think so.
These helmets do look good though. I'm sure they protect you to some extent, but its a bit of a grey area huh?
Plus side is good hearing, good vision, and they look super cool.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 3 out of 3
What helmet you wear is your choice, just wear one.
The best choice is wearing a helmet.
Now I might be being a little bit harsh in my opinions, but Id like to discuss this issue with you guys because we do have a lot of people who own and wear glider helmets.
I agree they are cool and kind of "elite", but are they really suitable for our sport? Will a light weight helmet save you?
Do we hate on motorbike helmets to make us feel better about wearing an overpriced ineffective helmet? Shouldnt we encourage all helmets and look at head protection with no BS?
Please discuss.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by Owen on -
hey guys I have had a low speed crash with a moto helmet, major whiplash screwed my neck for awhile, since then I have been riding with a MTN bike helmet which was great and a glider helmet which has been better, have had loads of crashes in these helmets and can say that it is much easier to keep your head off the ground and looking were you are crashing, in all my crashes with the MTN bike and glider helmetsI have been able to stop my head from hitting the deck.
I feel much safer in these styles of helmet for those reasons -
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Permalink Reply by Guff on
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If you hit a car ???
Owen said:hey guys I have had a low speed crash with a moto helmet, major whiplash screwed my neck for awhile, since then I have been riding with a MTN bike helmet which was great and a glider helmet which has been better, have had loads of crashes in these helmets and can say that it is much easier to keep your head off the ground and looking were you are crashing, in all my crashes with the MTN bike and glider helmetsI have been able to stop my head from hitting the deck.
I feel much safer in these styles of helmet for those reasons -
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Permalink Reply by Robbo on
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I have had 5 crashes when using moto or MX helmets and been knocked out 2 times on both occasions in corners traveling below 50km/h . On 2 of those 4 occasions I have suffered significant whiplash that required at least 7 days off work. On 3 of those 5 occasions I required medical attention. When using paragliding helmets I have had about 8 crashes and received no head or neck injuries, 3 of these crashes were on straight fast sections in full standup.
It should be noted a neck injury is a very serious thing that should not be underestimated, imagine telling a paraplegic after a crash at least you didn't get concussion - weight matters and should be balanced with other factors like impact.
For these reasons I advise against using an over weight high impact helmet for skateboarding -
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Find it hard to believe that as a representative of ASRA you are prepared to state that a motorcycle helmet which is rated for road use is unsafe for skateboarding............Especially when there are no deaths or serious injury to back it up.
Robbo said:I have had 5 crashes when using moto or MX helmets and been knocked out 2 times on both occasions in corners traveling below 50km/h . On 2 of those 4 occasions I have suffered significant whiplash that required at least 7 days off work. On 3 of those 5 occasions I required medical attention. When using paragliding helmets I have had about 8 crashes and received no head or neck injuries, 3 of these crashes were on straight fast sections in full standup.
It should be noted a neck injury is a very serious thing that should not be underestimated, imagine telling a paraplegic after a crash at least you didn't get concussion - weight matters and should be balanced with other factors like impact.
For these reasons I advise against using an over weight high impact helmet for skateboarding -
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This head hitting the ground is the same experience I have had. Each time I have crashed in a moto helmet my head has hit the ground and with force which seems very difficult to avoid. My head has hit the ground only once in a para helmet which was a very light touch on the chin. When you look at the video it looks like I hit my head hard against the rd but in reality the force was very light and I suffered no injury, just a small chip on the chin of the helmet
Owen said:hey guys I have had a low speed crash with a moto helmet, major whiplash screwed my neck for awhile, since then I have been riding with a MTN bike helmet which was great and a glider helmet which has been better, have had loads of crashes in these helmets and can say that it is much easier to keep your head off the ground and looking were you are crashing, in all my crashes with the MTN bike and glider helmetsI have been able to stop my head from hitting the deck.
I feel much safer in these styles of helmet for those reasons -
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ASRA AdminPermalink Reply by Bugs on -
A few people here have mentioned that certain types of helmets "feel safer" than other types. That sounds an alarm for me; a feeling of increased safety can lead people to take bigger risks than they otherwise would.
Safety measures are weird like that. People have an inbuilt risk thermometer and if something is made safer, they ratchet up the danger in some other way to get it back to the level it was before. It's called risk compensation, or risk homeostasis. Without an understanding of those concepts you really can't talk about the effect of safety measures like helmets. I recommend the work of John Adams. -
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by Jacko on -
if you hit a car and smash your head your fucked... no matter what your wearing. if you hit a car and you dont hit your head you might get pretty injured but thats not a head injury. if you smash your head against a car im sorry but nothing will stop you from getting seriously injured...
So therefore if you hit a car and DONT hit your head the helmet your wearing will save you from anything else you hit, unless you then fly head-first into a solid object at a high speed, which then again a motorbike helmet will not be able to save you from, including some form of neck injury
so in short... as stated before: Downhill skateboarding - Motorbike helmets are NO GOOD... MTN bike or paragliding hlmets are THE WAY TO GO.
There should be no further discussion
Guff said:If you hit a car ???
Owen said:hey guys I have had a low speed crash with a moto helmet, major whiplash screwed my neck for awhile, since then I have been riding with a MTN bike helmet which was great and a glider helmet which has been better, have had loads of crashes in these helmets and can say that it is much easier to keep your head off the ground and looking were you are crashing, in all my crashes with the MTN bike and glider helmetsI have been able to stop my head from hitting the deck.
I feel much safer in these styles of helmet for those reasons -
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by Ching on -
agreed that motorcycle helmets are not the best for downhill skateboarding. having hit my head twice wearing both motocross and mountain biking helmets, neck was hurting like a bitch for about a week. i can only imagine how much worse it'll be when you're using a heavy motorcycle helmet.
also, as mentioned before take into consideration how limited your vision and hearing is with a motorcycle helmet. vision is key, seeing what is going around you and your environment, hearing other riders call out to you and anything that's happening around you is important in avoiding accidents involving yourself and others.
i understand some people might be a bit skeptical about paragliding helmets and the alternative to that is to use a mountain bike helmet like the bell drop. best of both worlds. -
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by Trav on -
Prob about as much chance as sliding off the road and over a cliff on a lot of our runs, so using that sense we should bomb with parachutes ...?. just in case..
you see where this debate is going?.... farking nowhere
Guff said:If you hit a car ???
Owen said:hey guys I have had a low speed crash with a moto helmet, major whiplash screwed my neck for awhile, since then I have been riding with a MTN bike helmet which was great and a glider helmet which has been better, have had loads of crashes in these helmets and can say that it is much easier to keep your head off the ground and looking were you are crashing, in all my crashes with the MTN bike and glider helmetsI have been able to stop my head from hitting the deck.
I feel much safer in these styles of helmet for those reasons -
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If this is such a well known fact show me the evidence show me the skateboarder deaths that justify what is being said. There are plenty of examples of people passing away not wearing a helmet but show me the specific deaths and injuries that can show kids that wearing a motorcycle helmet is bad. As i am sure the guy who hits a car with an icaro on will want to know. Considering that death by car is the most common way to die riding a skateboard.
JudgeK said:Don't really want to get involved in this discussion, 'cause i've had it before, but Robbo is correct. The added weight of MC helmets can cause severe neck injuries and even death in low speed accidents, especially when lateral forces are involved. To break your neck and hence your spinal cord you really need a lot of lateral force or a lot of leverage. That is why the hangmans' noose is placed under one ear to cause a sudden twist and drop, during a hanging.
If you look at the majority of crashes at Newtons' 2009 they were at Forest Elbow. They were in the main slides towards haybales with a pretty sharp deceleration. You will probably find anyone wearing a MC helmet probably had a fair bit of whiplash due to the extra weight and load on the neck. Those wearing Aero or MTB helmets possibly suffered whiplash also but not to such a high degree and probably without any concussion. I can't remember the equation but it's about mass over speed verses acceleration and deceleration. Also certain types of helmet are not designed for low speed impacts and will grip to what ever surface they touch rather than slide. A good example of this is Simpson helmets which are designed for car racing and therefore are for impact by internal objects in a car or from foreign bodies flying thru' the air. I am not 100% sure on the capabilities of MTB helmets but from a personal experience they take a good hit front on and do slide a bit. I went off the front at 50km/h and slapped the ground hard. I ended up with whiplash and a small dose of concussion. Admittedly I weigh a ton which didn't help. As for data on MC helmets there is plenty to show what they are good for, you will be hard pressed to find impirecal data in the negative, apart from Govt. testing evaluations. I knew a Mcyclist who died in a low speed accident, 20m/h, from a broken neck and spine. He had barely accelerated when he fell off hit his head and voila broke his neck. He was wearing a none type tested helmet which gripped the tarmac and stopped his head, but his body kept accelerating. Anyways I think it is a mute argument, the only answer to any question should be:-
WEAR A HELMET OR POSSIBLY DIE ........................ -
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by Steve on -
I'm pretty sure three people just told you of their specific injuries whilst wearing a motorcycle helmet. If thats not good enough well wear a motorcycle helmet, Its your head!
Guff said:If this is such a well known fact show me the evidence show me the skateboarder deaths that justify what is being said. There are plenty of examples of people passing away not wearing a helmet but show me the specific deaths and injuries that can show kids that wearing a motorcycle helmet is bad. As i am sure the guy who hits a car with an icaro on will want to know. Considering that death by car is the most common way to die riding a skateboard.
JudgeK said:Don't really want to get involved in this discussion, 'cause i've had it before, but Robbo is correct. The added weight of MC helmets can cause severe neck injuries and even death in low speed accidents, especially when lateral forces are involved. To break your neck and hence your spinal cord you really need a lot of lateral force or a lot of leverage. That is why the hangmans' noose is placed under one ear to cause a sudden twist and drop, during a hanging.
If you look at the majority of crashes at Newtons' 2009 they were at Forest Elbow. They were in the main slides towards haybales with a pretty sharp deceleration. You will probably find anyone wearing a MC helmet probably had a fair bit of whiplash due to the extra weight and load on the neck. Those wearing Aero or MTB helmets possibly suffered whiplash also but not to such a high degree and probably without any concussion. I can't remember the equation but it's about mass over speed verses acceleration and deceleration. Also certain types of helmet are not designed for low speed impacts and will grip to what ever surface they touch rather than slide. A good example of this is Simpson helmets which are designed for car racing and therefore are for impact by internal objects in a car or from foreign bodies flying thru' the air. I am not 100% sure on the capabilities of MTB helmets but from a personal experience they take a good hit front on and do slide a bit. I went off the front at 50km/h and slapped the ground hard. I ended up with whiplash and a small dose of concussion. Admittedly I weigh a ton which didn't help. As for data on MC helmets there is plenty to show what they are good for, you will be hard pressed to find impirecal data in the negative, apart from Govt. testing evaluations. I knew a Mcyclist who died in a low speed accident, 20m/h, from a broken neck and spine. He had barely accelerated when he fell off hit his head and voila broke his neck. He was wearing a none type tested helmet which gripped the tarmac and stopped his head, but his body kept accelerating. Anyways I think it is a mute argument, the only answer to any question should be:-
WEAR A HELMET OR POSSIBLY DIE ........................ -
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As a representative of ASRA I am prepared to clearly state that a motorcycle helmet is appropriate when riding a motorcycle. When riding a skateboard you should use a more appropriate helmet that is better suited to the purpose. As a rep of ASRA I believe nobody in this organisation has done more then myself to promote safety in words and in deeds. I would not advise getting a bad fitting helmet in the same way that I would not advise getting a motorcycle helmet when a good fitting appropriate helmet would be better.
Just trying to scare kids into wearing any helmet is not always the best way to do things. Just like telling smokers they will get cancer does not do much for reducing smoking. You will often have more influence by giving good advice from personal experience and developing organisational and peer structure that encourages that. Telling a kid he is a dickhead isn't always the best way to influence them. If you build in the respect and you ingrain it in the community and in there peers they are much more likely to listen.
Guff said:Find it hard to believe that as a representative of ASRA you are prepared to state that a motorcycle helmet which is rated for road use is unsafe for skateboarding............Especially when there are no deaths or serious injury to back it up. -
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