The Great Debate: Helmets: Aero Vs Moto "neck injuries"?
Neck injuries?
All I can say about this is that the argument that "you will get neck injuries" from wearing a motorcycle helmet is a negative answer to a more important safety issue, protecting your head. We should positively endorse the wearing of all helmets, not let small arguments put skaters off. Why do we have to make people feel bad over something that could save their lives and their faces? The main thing is a motorbike helmet is a full face helmet. A friggin solid one too,... designed for maximum aerodynamics and protection for ON ROAD crashes, up to and over 100+kph!! Doesn't that sound like the same sort of crash environment we are in when we speedboard? Much closer to what we do than doing dirt jumps or hang gliding/flying. :/
Sure you can spend 500 on a helmet and have a really lightweight lid, and also be so-so fashionable at the local sesh, but I feel there are trade offs with all three possibilities and all have their pros and cons-
Motorbike helmets,
Mountain Bike helmets and
Glider helmets
Motorbike helmets are heavier, but tougher. They have a visor which is really handy. They also could save your life. Second hand these will cost peanuts, but dont get one that is so old that the foam inside is hard.
Some of the sort of crashes you might expect in a motorbike accident involve hitting solid objects, being thrown, slamming onto tarmac, and getting hit from behind (which must be a serious whiplash issue).
In studies under these conditions (on-road motorbike accident) there were neck injuries in some cases, but the protection to the head statistics far out-weighed the neck issue. If the same accident occurred without a helmet (the one that caused neck injuries), it is highly probable that the same neck injuries would occur, however it is doubtful that the accident victim would have survived. If you get neck injuries from a fall, it may not just be the weight of the helmet that caused it, it might be the way you fell.
Maybe one day you will pull a muscle in your neck when you fall off your skateboard, but this depends on the kind of fall. In my opinion, it is better to have more protection for your head.
If some skater buys a helmet like this, he should not be discouraged. This is good protection.
If you are worried about your neck get a foam racing neck brace. Probably not such a stupid idea for MTB and aero users either.
Just be aware that you cant hear ambient skating noise as well in these.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 1 out of 3
MTB helmets seem to be a happier medium. Light and medium priced. Still mainly designed for MTB crashes which are mostly off road, (but still gnarly) and at speeds mostly under 60kph. Yeah MOTO X and MTB helmets have a different shape than ON ROAD motorbike helmets. Wouldn't you think that they have done studies on the kind of accidents both sports have, and tailor-made the helmet to provide protection under their respective conditions? Not really very aero,... but a MTB isn't a very aero thing either.
Downside to the MTB helmet is the lack of a visor. I have seen home made visors that work, and I have seen some that seem to restrict vision. Think to yourself, if you are moving at 60kph and a snake or lizard or even a stick is on the ground, do you want to see it before you hit it? Its hard enough to see through the shadows of the trees without taking away some more visual clarity. What about pot holes? Do you want to see them?? A DIY visor could be a bigger player in you having a crash, so make sure you take it into consideration.
Why not go for goggles? You might see better.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 2 out of 3
Glider helmets. Very expensive.
So what kind of impact would you expect one of these to protect you from? I imagine it can't really protect you from a full plummet from the sky. It must have some protection from tree branches, cliff faces and maybe being skewered by the aluminum tubes that make up your ultralight. I don't believe the shells of the Glider helmet are as solid as a motorbike helmet, or possibly even a MTB helmet. I may not be right, but we are starting to see more high speed crashes from people wearing these, and I am scared that the statistics arent looking good. If there is official data on the safety of these in the sort of accidents you guys are having in these Id like to see it. But I do know the riders that generally wear these are more seasoned, and may not fall off as much.
Would I feel protected if I wore an Icaro on a motorbike or scooter? Somehow I don't think so.
These helmets do look good though. I'm sure they protect you to some extent, but its a bit of a grey area huh?
Plus side is good hearing, good vision, and they look super cool.
Speedboarding Style Factor : 3 out of 3
What helmet you wear is your choice, just wear one.
The best choice is wearing a helmet.
Now I might be being a little bit harsh in my opinions, but Id like to discuss this issue with you guys because we do have a lot of people who own and wear glider helmets.
I agree they are cool and kind of "elite", but are they really suitable for our sport? Will a light weight helmet save you?
Do we hate on motorbike helmets to make us feel better about wearing an overpriced ineffective helmet? Shouldnt we encourage all helmets and look at head protection with no BS?
Please discuss.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sean on
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Guff, there is a lot of research being done in this area at the moment - as Robbo said, standards in Europe are being re-considered due to some of them being too high. I think Bugs posted some links on this research in previous versions of this debate, of which there've been a few! Its still a topic of debate amongst the motorbike helmet standards people, so its not perhaps entirely decided, but there is very strong evidence that motorbike helmets are over-engineered even for most motorbike crashes. As has been pointed out, skateboard crashes are generally at lower speeds.
The point is that a helmet protects you by breaking/deforming to slow the deceleration on your head. If that doesn't actually happen unless you hit a wall at 100km/hr, then for the vast majority of crashes which are less of an impact you don't have proper protection. Plenty of skaters and cyclist have died in crashes, and the vast majority have been at lower speeds.
Thus the MTB and even glider helmets are very likely more suitable for our sport, even ignoring the valid arguments about vision, hearing and neck issues. -
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Permalink Reply by Robbo on
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Matty
Re:aero 'For flight' style helmets - The DH community has moved away from this style of aero helmet in recent times as you would have seen from the last few years at bathurst and last year on the tour. Unlike a couple years ago you will rarely see a 'for flight' helmet these days as the aero benefits are limited. All the top riders now use 'For Flight cuts' or 'No Limits' helmets.
Re: Predator helmet - This is simply a MTB rated helmet with a factory visor, it has no new rating.
Re: IGSA - They allow this helmet because street luges use them. These helmets do not have the same negatives for luges as they do for skatboarders. Luge is unable to hear anything with or without a helmet because their head is 3" from the rd noise, Luge require vision at the bottom of the visor whereas skateboard requires vision at the top, Luge is not at risk of highside or being thrown very high in the air so the force on the neck is less, luge has less requirements for balance as their center of gravity is already as low as is possible so weight is less of an issue -
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Permalink Reply by Guff on
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So Judge K is a doctor .... Then OK i will gladly take his opinion on board. I don't care what helmet is safer my issue is these discussions should be just that discussions. Not people trying to force their opinions onto others. Especially when i don't see them as being qualified to exert influence over anyone in matters such as safety. People are capable of making their own decisions when presented with FACTS not speculation. I asked you for evidence that motorcycle helmets cause spinal injuries and death you can't give me any FACT most skateboarding deaths are result of collisions with cars not low speed accidents. Why is it that motorcycle racers seem to walk away from crazy spinning type accidents should't they all have broken necks?Or does this only apply to low speed accidents i would have thought the higher the speed the higher the force.
Robbo said:Guff you must be blind a bicycle helmet is rated for the road and they have collisions with cars all the time. Re: medical proffession - JudgeK is in the medical profession and gave very clear examples regarding helmets, you may not have looked at his post -
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Premium MemberPermalink Reply by sidecar nic on -
I agree with you Robbo that its a stupid idea to use a second hand helmet, especially if you don't know the history of it.... My question is how many of those groms do you see properly inspecting (possibly replacing) their helmet after a stack?
New motorcycle helmets are $50 and up - hardly that expensive.....
Robbo said:Rjays missile II MTB helmet retails at the Hopshop for $119. The problem with grom motorcycle helmets is that I have never seen a grom buy one brand new because they are very expansive to buy new. They have them because people are always throwing them out, They are usually acquired from a dad, brother, uncle or friend who has no use for it. They are also easy to get from a cash converters second hand which is not an advisable thing to do.
the Demon said:The other thing that no one has mentioned yet is that helmets are disposable items - I agree that motorcycle helmets are big, heavy, cumbersome and impair vision and audability but they're also a lot more affordable and accessible than some of the other options we have at present since there is no specific helmet for downhill skateboarding. Im curious to know how many people here have replaced their helmet as a precautionary measure after a big accident? Have you done a quick visual inspection and decided that its ok or sold it to a grom and replaced it? -
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Permalink Reply by Phill C on
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Just for your information, luges do highside (look at Jack Atkins on a green luge in Yvons Newtons Video), riders of luges can hit their heads in a whipping or slapping motion, and you can fall from the same height as a skateboarder in a tuck if you highside while your trying to brake sitting up at highspeed. I know this as it has happened to me. I would not however give anyone advice on helmets.
Anything can happen in a crash and if anyone is stupid enough to take advice on buying a helmet off the asra forum from riders trying to stamp their authority on the scene, then they are aready messed up in the head, and I doubt any of these helmets will do them justice. -
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Demon - Most groms that I have had exposure to definitely inspect their helmets after a crash, they don't necessarily replace their helmets as they should but are usually aware of the damage. Not sure if its the cost of replacement that stops a grom or complacency
Guff - What can I say, your a man on a mission
Phil - Young kids come to this site for advice because its the most relevant place, they are generally respectful and looking to learn. Kids who look for advice here are not "messed up in the head". -
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if they take advice like the advice given on the 15 dec at 4.30 in the Hop thread by you they will be messed up in the head.
Please don't try to get on your moral high horse now.
Robbo said:Demon - Most groms that I have had exposure to definitely inspect their helmets after a crash, they don't necessarily replace their helmets as they should but are usually aware of the damage. Not sure if its the cost of replacement that stops a grom or complacency
Guff - What can I say, your a man on a mission
Phil - Young kids come to this site for advice because its the most relevant place, they are generally respectful and looking to learn. Kids who look for advice here are not "messed up in the head". -
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Phil there are 5 pages to this thread, have a look at them and consider if you have made a contribution... you may find you are doing yourself an injustice
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I rarely contribute to this forum as it has become like a fisher price version of a skateboard forum.
Robbo said:Phil there are 5 pages to this thread, have a look at them and consider if you have made a contribution... you may find you are doing yourself an injustice -
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Phil its contributions like that, that fill a wonderful site and with negative talk. It may be a positive thing if you don't contribute
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Permalink Reply by matty leadfoot on
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All I can see in 5 pages is a bunch of guys trying to justify their choices, myself included.
I still stand by what I said in my opening remarks, but the case "against motorbike helmet" guys cant provide good enough reasons for their side of the argument. You have talked about personal experiences, but the data on road accidents is right there to prove your points mute.
The same with the fact that (as Lance said) there are bike helmets that only weigh 200 grams more than an Icaro ( the weight of a GoPro camera). If some of you riders are going with cameras on your head you are essentially supporting the same weight. Lets not go into the dangers of neck injury if you crash with a lever on top of your head. The only thing is you dont have a helmet rated for the road.
Most of the people I have ridden with have worn regular open face helmets up to stuff that is about 40 kmh. After that the full face comes out.
After this the adverage speed jumps because you are getting rides to the top, and averaging between 50-100 kmh on your run.
You can still call that low speed if you like...... ;)
Also you site that you need good vision. Well, some aero helmets you cant even turn around in. Its an argument that is valid to a point and then the rules seem to go out the window.
.aaaaand the two helmets from Timeship are looking much closer to motorbike helmets than you guys would like to admit.
The first one IS a motorbike helmet, a motocross helmet with a dot rating for the road. The second one, the predator is obviously closer to a motorbike helmet too than a bike helmet. -
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But Robbo you're forgetting I am a paid member of ASRA and have just as much right to contribute and voice my opinion as you (paid member or not).
I was saying that if people buying helmets only take the advice they receive off the ASRA forum as %100 law then they need help as it would be foolish. Obviously you did not like the fact that I refered to a post that highlighted that you tended to be a hypocrite.
They should seek advice from Australian Standards regarding which helmet would be safer. They are experts.
Just so you know robbo I have been riding luge & skateboard long before ASRA existed and I always will be, I am a member of ASRA as it is stated that it is a democratic organisation. With or without ASRA I will be riding and I do not apreciate you or anyone else talking down to me.
You have your opinion which you are entitled to, but others are entitled to voice theirs. If you do not like it you leave!
Or alternatively delete any post that goes against your agenda.
Robbo said:Phil its contributions like that, that fill a wonderful site and with negative dribble. It may be a positive thing if you don't contribute -
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